Good post. The discussion of elite women before industrialization is good. I just read Lord David Cecil's life of Lord Melbourne, the British Prime Minister when Victoria acceded to the throne in 1837. The depiction of his early life, and his mother's role in running the family enterprise, engaging in status competitions, placing her sons on the path to success, and her daughters in good marriages, is exactly as you describe here. A very good book generally as well.
"There is a certain kind of woman who will never be satisfied with this, and it’s just as necessary they have a role."
Perhaps in the here and now, in the sense of not wanting to exclude anybody. But in the long-term... why? I mean, if these women choose to not reproduce, then that's their choice. If they choose to not reproduce, there will likely be fewer women like them in the future.
What you wrote here is good, and provides good reason to not be hateful towards "girl-bosses". You've made it clear that they're victims themselves to some degree.
But... let's look at it from two perspectives. Evolutionary and Christian. I'd guess almost everybody here believes in at least one of the two, some might believe in both.
From an evolutionary perspective, it's all about reproduction and ensuring your children likewise reproduce. If certain traits cause you to not reproduce, then that means they're not well-adapted to the current environment. We might like some of these traits, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in the process of becoming obsolete (or at least less common). Which means that Nature itself is saying that these traits typically don't work any more.
From a Christian perspective... is it better to seek status, or to seek honor? In my reading of the Gospels, Christ didn't encourage His disciples to seek status for its own sake. Christ was also quite critical of the high-status Pharisees. At the same time, Christ's teachings could be seen as encouraging people to live highly honorable lives, to care about the less fortunate, to never make false promises, to put others before yourself. I think this would include putting the well-being of your own children ahead of your career or job.
So if the modern girlboss is at odds with both (current) Nature and Nature's God, then perhaps we should calmly accept what is to come?
Also, the Genghis Khan comparison... I mean, there's a certain compelling logic there. It makes sense. But... do we want more or fewer *Genghis Khans* in our world?
I think an argument can be made that too many people in our society value status over everything else. To be clear, this is certainly not just an issue for women, it's also an issue for men. Also, status by itself is morally neutral. It's like a tool, whether it's good or bad depends entirely on what it's used for. Honor, on the other hand, is inherently good. If the vast majority of people live in an honorable way it creates high-trust societies that are better for all of us.
In elite society, one's position in employment gives access to people who can give their child a leg-up in life. Seeking status is not a vice in itself, but one of the easiest things that can turn into one. The problem is, because of the change in the structure of work, status has been transferred from the family to the individual, and has created all sorts of perverse incentives.
I'm not an elite myself, but have relations in those spheres. It's a very different world, with different vices and virtues.
Replying here to correct something I wrote. There was no Genghis Khan comparison... it was a generic warlord comparison. The term "warlord" instantly made me think of Genghis Khan, and that got stuck in my mind. Apologies for the mistake.
Eloquently written Alan! I follow a woman on YouTube (Gina with The Shift) who has talked about how the 1950s were an aberration in history and actually led to a lot of dissatisfaction that led to women's lib. Throughout history, women have always worked, they had businesses in the home and if there was necessity out of the home, but usually the domestic sphere.
I, myself was almost a girl boss. I obtained a BA degree then got accepted to a MA degree. I had two options: become a corporate girl boss or a stay at home wife with the option to become a homemaker who homeschools. My husband said I could do what I wanted.
We were newly Catholic and I decided to follow Jesus. I wanted to be a girl boss so that I could send my kids to private school and afford the fancy things. Glad God had other plans.
But, as a homemaker in 2024, who's atomized, I have friends and family but friends have many kids and not much time. And the closest family is 4 hours away. I usually become bored with 2 kids under 3 years old. I find taking classes at a local community college really helps and reading. It's about intellectual stimulation.
My last thought would be that we are currently living through a war. And it's a war against the family. We are fighting against the powers and principalities that want men vs women, race vs race, country vs country. God is the only answer and becoming a part of the church he established (Catholic!)
My wife owns a piano studio, which helps distract her from our kids constant needs. I originally was very hand off until I realized she wanted me to have a strong hand in decision making. Her mom was a very talented editor who often felt stifled with home life, so the ten or so hours a week she works is very good for balance.
Everyone needs a hobby and a skill set to work on, otherwise you get bogged down in unnecessary worries.
And Nicole, I hear you. I think I am this kind of girlboss. I worked eight years in engineering at a Fortune 500 company: I won the early career awards, got the executive masters, was chosen to speak at the leadership conference for the CEO and industry leaders. When I had a baby and they wanted to keep me, they designated a pumping room and improved it, let me switch to working 32 hours with full time benefits... I was one of the only women in my department and the first female engineer in that department to have a baby while working.
When my husband finished grad school (PhD in engineering, running AI models), I put in my notice at work. They were very surprised. I'm Catholic and being home with kids had always been my eventual plan. I had some time at the beginning of my stay at home mom life where I really missed the status and adult compliments on work done well. (It was also 2020, so we were all pretty atomized and alone, which is depressing in and of itself.)
I'm part of a lively and growing Catholic community. For the last eight years, my husband and I have hosted an open invite weekly dinner almost every week of the year (besides major holidays or if we're traveling). We tell everyone that bringing a dish is admired, but not required, and to just bring themselves and a friend. These had been small dinners, serving oven pizza or ramen noodles, but post 2020, after everyone realized they needed community, our dinners started to grow and haven't stopped. Most weeks we have twenty adults and three to ten kids (a rotating crowd every week). A peak week this year was 40 people, they had to spill out of our small house and into our small backyard. I cook all the main dishes (I've learned how to cook Indian rice and beans for a crowd) and I get everyone's phone number and talk with them and connect them to other people in the community.
We've had three people meet their spouses at dinners, people looking for a new job connect to people looking to hire, and a number of converts (which is all the Holy Spirit, not me). I feel I get to live my best 1910 society lady life, because I am raising my children and keeping house and cooking, but I'm a connector person. If there's anyone new in the community or anyone who is looking to connect with someone who does X, anyone in our community will say, "ask Kate, she'll know who to connect you with."
My life is busy and I can't be everyone's best friend, because too many people know me, but my life feels purposeful, connecting people to each other and to Jesus- turning my girlboss tendencies towards building caring Christian community.
Our encouragement for other people to try hosting dinners:
This is one of the most insightful things I have read on Substack. I have known of the dynamics you speak of for a long time, but I never quite put together the consequences of them.
I will say this: what if the current corporate structure we have was either deliberately set up like this, or upon discovering this side effect, those at the top did everything possible to expand it?
I believe that the modern public corporation has its purposes. It has advantages, it is one of the most important and useful social technologies to ever exist. It answered for the problem of how to socialize resources without destroying incentives.
But it is only really useful in that context. In the modern economy of financial sleight of hand and pressing up stock prices just to hit the ejection button in an IPO, it is detrimental.
I never previously thought of the detriment to women, or even conceived of the boss lady as aristocracy now forced into the trenches. But it makes a whole lot of sense.
Enjoyable read. For girl bosses, I would distinguish between those that have aimed for true elite status (upper corporate echelons, Big Law) and those that just ended up in nice but inconsequential corporate roles. A lot of the latter are just women whose Plan B became Plan A when the dude didn’t come along, so they threw themselves into it. A lot of times the maternal instinct goes into their pets.
I spent a couple of decades in a private company that went public, grew and eventually was taken over. At each step, the personal touches that made life a little better and connected my family with the firm (children’s Christmas Party, Christmas party with spouses) were taken away. Although my department head tried to build personal connections with employees to an uncommon level, to a certain extent it was artificial and there was always the fear they were just using it as an alternative to pay raises. It’s also tough to develop true friendships if people live in completely different cities and commute.
As you point out, there aren’t a lot of ways to gain status or a role in our society beyond work and education. There are little status games with women on parent councils and so on, but they are silly and inconsequential. My wife is at home with the little ones and we don’t know any other stay at home moms in the area for play dates or socializing during the daytime. Everyone else needs two incomes for mortgages.
An awful lot of our spare energy goes into educating the kids. The schools are so junky and the competition is so great that we end up having tutors and extra classes arranged. You might as well have two professional incomes and pay for private school tuition, if you have a small number of children and can afford it.
A good idea would be to find your tribe. For us, we are Catholic and found a traditional Latin mass and the communities that spring up around it. I found a Catholic friend on FB and found events to go to. Also being friendly from time to time when out and about.
Private school is very expensive and so are little play groups, but they're cheaper in the grand scheme. But, go to those. I don't know how old your kids are, but it's always possible to start looking at things from a fresh perspective.
"These women tended to be intelligent, shrewd, and have a deep instinct that complemented their powerful husbands well, and are only a genetic dead-end now because of the perverse incentives of the corporate world."
It's bureaucratic Darwinism - only those who thrive in modern corporations will reproduce and those traits that led to success in earlier periods are now bred out of existence. Soon the world will be filled with just the automatons.
I would disagree. Corporations are either a fertility sink or neutral. I've never seen a company where executives consistently have more kids than the lower levels of the organization.
I like the post, thoughtful and thought provoking.
We can criticize the modern faceless corporations, but the old status games were just as ripe for critique. “House of Mirth” was a great tragicomic satire of pre WWI east coast society. The characters are frivolous, status obsessed, and detached from society at large.
When I read it I thought, this seems like a decadent society. I’m not surprised the old social hierarchies and monarchies were swept away by liberalism, communism and industry in the 20th century.
This is the best article I’ve read on the intersection between fertility rates, education, and feminism. Thank you for not discounting class or claiming that smart driven women should channel all that energy into homeschooling.
I read an article a while back about the influencer “Ballerina Farm” and that she’s not a “tradwife” but a “trade wife”. This article fits with some of their arguments nicely.
Sounds like these types would of made great priest-wives. They do a lot for the female community in that church as well as the other affairs for the parish. A really cool dynamic I noticed when we started attending an eastern Church.
I really enjoyed this article. “Status is the ability to make others defer decision-making to you or to prompt people to take actions on your behalf.” So, would you say that, at its core, status is about access to people and the ability to influence them? Is it primarily propagated through hierarchical networks (position), or more indirectly through media and propaganda? How crucial is status today? Has it become more or less important for agency? Sorry for all the questions—there’s just a lot here to think about!
Fascinating read on the corporate climbing well coiffed stock-option Susies. All the girl bosses I'm familiar with are either obese cat ladies, motherly caretakers, or divorced scolds with purple haired basement dwelling neckbeard sons and lesbian daughters. Getting on my knees tonight to thank the Lord my mid-career foray into management was mercifully short, with nothing more to show for it than a really nice salary bump.
Good post. The discussion of elite women before industrialization is good. I just read Lord David Cecil's life of Lord Melbourne, the British Prime Minister when Victoria acceded to the throne in 1837. The depiction of his early life, and his mother's role in running the family enterprise, engaging in status competitions, placing her sons on the path to success, and her daughters in good marriages, is exactly as you describe here. A very good book generally as well.
"There is a certain kind of woman who will never be satisfied with this, and it’s just as necessary they have a role."
Perhaps in the here and now, in the sense of not wanting to exclude anybody. But in the long-term... why? I mean, if these women choose to not reproduce, then that's their choice. If they choose to not reproduce, there will likely be fewer women like them in the future.
What you wrote here is good, and provides good reason to not be hateful towards "girl-bosses". You've made it clear that they're victims themselves to some degree.
But... let's look at it from two perspectives. Evolutionary and Christian. I'd guess almost everybody here believes in at least one of the two, some might believe in both.
From an evolutionary perspective, it's all about reproduction and ensuring your children likewise reproduce. If certain traits cause you to not reproduce, then that means they're not well-adapted to the current environment. We might like some of these traits, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in the process of becoming obsolete (or at least less common). Which means that Nature itself is saying that these traits typically don't work any more.
From a Christian perspective... is it better to seek status, or to seek honor? In my reading of the Gospels, Christ didn't encourage His disciples to seek status for its own sake. Christ was also quite critical of the high-status Pharisees. At the same time, Christ's teachings could be seen as encouraging people to live highly honorable lives, to care about the less fortunate, to never make false promises, to put others before yourself. I think this would include putting the well-being of your own children ahead of your career or job.
So if the modern girlboss is at odds with both (current) Nature and Nature's God, then perhaps we should calmly accept what is to come?
Also, the Genghis Khan comparison... I mean, there's a certain compelling logic there. It makes sense. But... do we want more or fewer *Genghis Khans* in our world?
I think an argument can be made that too many people in our society value status over everything else. To be clear, this is certainly not just an issue for women, it's also an issue for men. Also, status by itself is morally neutral. It's like a tool, whether it's good or bad depends entirely on what it's used for. Honor, on the other hand, is inherently good. If the vast majority of people live in an honorable way it creates high-trust societies that are better for all of us.
In elite society, one's position in employment gives access to people who can give their child a leg-up in life. Seeking status is not a vice in itself, but one of the easiest things that can turn into one. The problem is, because of the change in the structure of work, status has been transferred from the family to the individual, and has created all sorts of perverse incentives.
I'm not an elite myself, but have relations in those spheres. It's a very different world, with different vices and virtues.
Replying here to correct something I wrote. There was no Genghis Khan comparison... it was a generic warlord comparison. The term "warlord" instantly made me think of Genghis Khan, and that got stuck in my mind. Apologies for the mistake.
Eloquently written Alan! I follow a woman on YouTube (Gina with The Shift) who has talked about how the 1950s were an aberration in history and actually led to a lot of dissatisfaction that led to women's lib. Throughout history, women have always worked, they had businesses in the home and if there was necessity out of the home, but usually the domestic sphere.
I, myself was almost a girl boss. I obtained a BA degree then got accepted to a MA degree. I had two options: become a corporate girl boss or a stay at home wife with the option to become a homemaker who homeschools. My husband said I could do what I wanted.
We were newly Catholic and I decided to follow Jesus. I wanted to be a girl boss so that I could send my kids to private school and afford the fancy things. Glad God had other plans.
But, as a homemaker in 2024, who's atomized, I have friends and family but friends have many kids and not much time. And the closest family is 4 hours away. I usually become bored with 2 kids under 3 years old. I find taking classes at a local community college really helps and reading. It's about intellectual stimulation.
My last thought would be that we are currently living through a war. And it's a war against the family. We are fighting against the powers and principalities that want men vs women, race vs race, country vs country. God is the only answer and becoming a part of the church he established (Catholic!)
My wife owns a piano studio, which helps distract her from our kids constant needs. I originally was very hand off until I realized she wanted me to have a strong hand in decision making. Her mom was a very talented editor who often felt stifled with home life, so the ten or so hours a week she works is very good for balance.
Everyone needs a hobby and a skill set to work on, otherwise you get bogged down in unnecessary worries.
Great piece Alan!
And Nicole, I hear you. I think I am this kind of girlboss. I worked eight years in engineering at a Fortune 500 company: I won the early career awards, got the executive masters, was chosen to speak at the leadership conference for the CEO and industry leaders. When I had a baby and they wanted to keep me, they designated a pumping room and improved it, let me switch to working 32 hours with full time benefits... I was one of the only women in my department and the first female engineer in that department to have a baby while working.
When my husband finished grad school (PhD in engineering, running AI models), I put in my notice at work. They were very surprised. I'm Catholic and being home with kids had always been my eventual plan. I had some time at the beginning of my stay at home mom life where I really missed the status and adult compliments on work done well. (It was also 2020, so we were all pretty atomized and alone, which is depressing in and of itself.)
I'm part of a lively and growing Catholic community. For the last eight years, my husband and I have hosted an open invite weekly dinner almost every week of the year (besides major holidays or if we're traveling). We tell everyone that bringing a dish is admired, but not required, and to just bring themselves and a friend. These had been small dinners, serving oven pizza or ramen noodles, but post 2020, after everyone realized they needed community, our dinners started to grow and haven't stopped. Most weeks we have twenty adults and three to ten kids (a rotating crowd every week). A peak week this year was 40 people, they had to spill out of our small house and into our small backyard. I cook all the main dishes (I've learned how to cook Indian rice and beans for a crowd) and I get everyone's phone number and talk with them and connect them to other people in the community.
We've had three people meet their spouses at dinners, people looking for a new job connect to people looking to hire, and a number of converts (which is all the Holy Spirit, not me). I feel I get to live my best 1910 society lady life, because I am raising my children and keeping house and cooking, but I'm a connector person. If there's anyone new in the community or anyone who is looking to connect with someone who does X, anyone in our community will say, "ask Kate, she'll know who to connect you with."
My life is busy and I can't be everyone's best friend, because too many people know me, but my life feels purposeful, connecting people to each other and to Jesus- turning my girlboss tendencies towards building caring Christian community.
Our encouragement for other people to try hosting dinners:
https://faithandwitness.org/2024/07/16/how-about-dinner/
This is one of the most insightful things I have read on Substack. I have known of the dynamics you speak of for a long time, but I never quite put together the consequences of them.
I will say this: what if the current corporate structure we have was either deliberately set up like this, or upon discovering this side effect, those at the top did everything possible to expand it?
I believe that the modern public corporation has its purposes. It has advantages, it is one of the most important and useful social technologies to ever exist. It answered for the problem of how to socialize resources without destroying incentives.
But it is only really useful in that context. In the modern economy of financial sleight of hand and pressing up stock prices just to hit the ejection button in an IPO, it is detrimental.
I never previously thought of the detriment to women, or even conceived of the boss lady as aristocracy now forced into the trenches. But it makes a whole lot of sense.
Yet another reason to dislike the current system
Enjoyable read. For girl bosses, I would distinguish between those that have aimed for true elite status (upper corporate echelons, Big Law) and those that just ended up in nice but inconsequential corporate roles. A lot of the latter are just women whose Plan B became Plan A when the dude didn’t come along, so they threw themselves into it. A lot of times the maternal instinct goes into their pets.
I spent a couple of decades in a private company that went public, grew and eventually was taken over. At each step, the personal touches that made life a little better and connected my family with the firm (children’s Christmas Party, Christmas party with spouses) were taken away. Although my department head tried to build personal connections with employees to an uncommon level, to a certain extent it was artificial and there was always the fear they were just using it as an alternative to pay raises. It’s also tough to develop true friendships if people live in completely different cities and commute.
As you point out, there aren’t a lot of ways to gain status or a role in our society beyond work and education. There are little status games with women on parent councils and so on, but they are silly and inconsequential. My wife is at home with the little ones and we don’t know any other stay at home moms in the area for play dates or socializing during the daytime. Everyone else needs two incomes for mortgages.
An awful lot of our spare energy goes into educating the kids. The schools are so junky and the competition is so great that we end up having tutors and extra classes arranged. You might as well have two professional incomes and pay for private school tuition, if you have a small number of children and can afford it.
A good idea would be to find your tribe. For us, we are Catholic and found a traditional Latin mass and the communities that spring up around it. I found a Catholic friend on FB and found events to go to. Also being friendly from time to time when out and about.
Private school is very expensive and so are little play groups, but they're cheaper in the grand scheme. But, go to those. I don't know how old your kids are, but it's always possible to start looking at things from a fresh perspective.
"These women tended to be intelligent, shrewd, and have a deep instinct that complemented their powerful husbands well, and are only a genetic dead-end now because of the perverse incentives of the corporate world."
It's bureaucratic Darwinism - only those who thrive in modern corporations will reproduce and those traits that led to success in earlier periods are now bred out of existence. Soon the world will be filled with just the automatons.
I would disagree. Corporations are either a fertility sink or neutral. I've never seen a company where executives consistently have more kids than the lower levels of the organization.
Any company run by Elon Musk ;)
there will be fewer and fewer execs too, only room for an oligopoly. (All of this is tongue in cheek)
There was probably a moment in time, between Mad Men and Roe v Wade, when executives had illegitimate children.
The more things change the more they stay the same
I like the post, thoughtful and thought provoking.
We can criticize the modern faceless corporations, but the old status games were just as ripe for critique. “House of Mirth” was a great tragicomic satire of pre WWI east coast society. The characters are frivolous, status obsessed, and detached from society at large.
When I read it I thought, this seems like a decadent society. I’m not surprised the old social hierarchies and monarchies were swept away by liberalism, communism and industry in the 20th century.
This is the best article I’ve read on the intersection between fertility rates, education, and feminism. Thank you for not discounting class or claiming that smart driven women should channel all that energy into homeschooling.
I read an article a while back about the influencer “Ballerina Farm” and that she’s not a “tradwife” but a “trade wife”. This article fits with some of their arguments nicely.
Sounds like these types would of made great priest-wives. They do a lot for the female community in that church as well as the other affairs for the parish. A really cool dynamic I noticed when we started attending an eastern Church.
I really enjoyed this article. “Status is the ability to make others defer decision-making to you or to prompt people to take actions on your behalf.” So, would you say that, at its core, status is about access to people and the ability to influence them? Is it primarily propagated through hierarchical networks (position), or more indirectly through media and propaganda? How crucial is status today? Has it become more or less important for agency? Sorry for all the questions—there’s just a lot here to think about!
Fascinating read on the corporate climbing well coiffed stock-option Susies. All the girl bosses I'm familiar with are either obese cat ladies, motherly caretakers, or divorced scolds with purple haired basement dwelling neckbeard sons and lesbian daughters. Getting on my knees tonight to thank the Lord my mid-career foray into management was mercifully short, with nothing more to show for it than a really nice salary bump.
Amazing post. Really thoughtful.
Good article.